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The last form of discrimination – why is Britain ageist?

The last form of discrimination – why is Britain ageist? 		Presented by
Lawrence Naman 		Submit questions by Nov 10 2008
Interview published on Nov 16 2008
Jo Swinson (show answers)
  1. Graham asked Jo Swinson: "How do you feel about the torrent of abuse levelled at your former leader Sir Menzies Campbell from certain sections of the media regarding his age and fitness for the job?"
  2. Jo Swinson answers: "I think it was shocking and I don’t think we would tolerate that kind of discrimination based on gender or religion or someone’s disability status, but somehow in our society it still seems to be acceptable..." Show more»" I think it was shocking and I don’t think we would tolerate that kind of discrimination based on gender or religion or someone’s disability status, but somehow in our society it still seems to be acceptable to pillory people because of their age, whether that’s because they are deemed to be too old of too young. "Show less«
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  6. tnreeves asked Jo Swinson: "Given recent events withing the Liberal Party, how old is too old to be a leader of a major political party?"
  7. Jo Swinson answers: "I think it is very regrettable with this climate and I don’t know if there is a magic age, it always seems to me that there is a little golden window of about 40 to 55 where people have earned their ..." Show more»" I think it is very regrettable with this climate and I don’t know if there is a magic age, it always seems to me that there is a little golden window of about 40 to 55 where people have earned their stripes and they have enough experience but they are not quite past it yet – but I don’t think we should say that anything outside that age is too young or too old and to be honest I think it is the media that are effectively saying that. Ming went through 70 interviews during the Lib Dem conference and in every single one he was asked if he was too old to do the job. When you are the leader of a political party and your job is to get across policies on a range of issues and in every interview valuable time is spent talking about your age then that is interfering with your ability to do your job, sadly. In a sense, that question might be best directed towards sections of the media who are drawing the cartoons. Even now I see the same cartoonists who depicted Ming with a zimmer frame are now depicting one of the candidates for the leadership of the Liberal Democrats in nappies because he happens to be 40 – you can’t win. "Show less«
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  11. dobbsy99 asked Jo Swinson: "Whilst the average age of the population is increasing, it seems likely that ageism is going to become more of an issue. However, there's also an increasing social trend towards a 'compensation culture'..." Show more »"Whilst the average age of the population is increasing, it seems likely that ageism is going to become more of an issue. However, there's also an increasing social trend towards a 'compensation culture' whereby people are becoming more likely to (succesfully) carry out proceedings against all manner of discriminatory charges and accusations. With this combination, there's a real danger that a company's efficiency and ability to make resourcing decisions is compromised for fear of being seen as discriminating by age: Whether a younger person is deemed unsuitable for a certain job because they lack the experience or practical knowhow to do it well, or an older person is rejected on the grounds that their skillbase and technological understanding has become a little too behind the times, what measures are being considered to ensure that ageism isn't going to be used as a scapegoat by individuals who are simply bitter that their skills weren't properly suited for a particular job? " Show less »
  12. Jo Swinson answers: "You could make that same argument about sex discrimination or race discrimination laws, at the end of the day all it forces employers to do is have some kind of paper trail or evidence that they chose..." Show more»" You could make that same argument about sex discrimination or race discrimination laws, at the end of the day all it forces employers to do is have some kind of paper trail or evidence that they chose the best person for the job. So for employers with proper recruitment procedures I don’t think it will be a major problem. If they can show fairly objectively why they have made a particular decision then there shouldn’t be a problem. You may be right – it may be that the best person for the job may not be the older applicant but it doesn’t follow that because the other applicant doesn’t get the job then that is age discrimination. But employers in that scenario do need to have a robust framework in place so that they can say: “no it wasn’t that, it was because of these reasons”, rather than just saying: “well we just had to give it somebody else”. "Show less«
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  16. tnreeves asked Jo Swinson: "Have you ever been discriminated against in Parliament because of your age? Do you feel that your opinion has ever counted for less due to your age?"
  17. Jo Swinson answers: "I think discriminated against is perhaps too strong it’s certainly been used against me by interestingly enough not by back benchers but by front benchers on the labour and tory benches. In fact, a week..." Show more»" I think discriminated against is perhaps too strong it’s certainly been used against me by interestingly enough not by back benchers but by front benchers on the labour and tory benches. In fact, a week after the government introduced the age discrimination legislation, I asked a question about the number of young Scottish people who getting paid less because of their age and the government minister shouted out “are you one of them?” – completely undermining his government’s introduction of age discrimination legislation. I don’t mind the odd bit of banter but it is possibly a bit inappropriate coming from the front bench spokespeople. I don’t think that means they are taking what I am saying less seriously but it is a bit irritating as they wouldn’t necessarily shout something sexist at me if I stood up and asked a question about maternity services. "Show less«
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  21. pollyvickery asked Jo Swinson: "According to a recent survey by the Employers Forum on Age, the anti age discrimination laws that came into power a year ago have had little affect on the number of people suffering from age discrimination..." Show more »"According to a recent survey by the Employers Forum on Age, the anti age discrimination laws that came into power a year ago have had little affect on the number of people suffering from age discrimination in the workplace. Are these laws far reaching enough and what more can the government do to tackle work place discrimination based on age?" Show less »
  22. Jo Swinson answers: "Well first of all I think the laws were very, very welcome but we can’t be complacent and say that because we’ve got a law there then everything is fine. In a sense it is not totally surprising that the..." Show more»" Well first of all I think the laws were very, very welcome but we can’t be complacent and say that because we’ve got a law there then everything is fine. In a sense it is not totally surprising that the problem hasn’t been solved a year on, I think it was 30 years ago that we had equal pay legislation and we are still in a situation where there is not equal pay between men and women. It is clear that this will take a while to achieve because it is about changing attitudes. But the first step is to make sure the legislation is there so there is a clear statement from parliament to say that this is wrong. The EFA say not much has changed but I think it will start to filter into the consciousness of employers and also workers will start to think “well actually I don’t have to retire the minute I hit 65 and maybe I can consider working longer”. As more and more people do that then that will help to change attitudes but changing attitudes does take time and will only partially be achieved through legislation. Legislation is an important factor but we also need more organisations like the EFA to help share best practice amongst different employers. Best practice is then, in a sense, the carrot and use legislation as the stick on those that lag behind and still discriminate on the basis of age. "Show less«
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  26. Tonyc1 asked Jo Swinson: "Following the relative success of Tony Blair and David Cameron in reinvigorating their respective parties – youth appears to be highly valued in the current political climate – do you think your relative..." Show more »"Following the relative success of Tony Blair and David Cameron in reinvigorating their respective parties – youth appears to be highly valued in the current political climate – do you think your relative youth has helped you in your political career?" Show less »
  27. Jo Swinson answers: "To be honest I see it as a double edged sword – there are advantages and opportunities you get as a result of happening to be the youngest MP (the media likes a label) but equally you can be typecast ..." Show more»" To be honest I see it as a double edged sword – there are advantages and opportunities you get as a result of happening to be the youngest MP (the media likes a label) but equally you can be typecast and people possibly think of me as much younger than some of my colleagues who might only be a couple of years older. The main thing is I’m 27 – I feel far too old to be the youngest MP and that is where the problem is. You talk about Tony Blair and David Cameron and you talk about youth, but only in politics are you really young at 40 and it’s great I don’t need to invest in all these expensive face creams to keep myself looking young because in the context of the house of commons I will be looking young for ages but that is part of the problem. When I go into schools in my constituency, Just yesterday morning I went to a primary school in my constituency and I said: “there are 646 mps in the country, how many do you think are under 30?” I had guesses ranging from 5 all the way up to 320. Most of the kids guessed that about 50 or 60 MPs were under 30. The answer is 2. 2 out of 646 and in fact, if you look at MPs under 40 its fewer than one on ten – if you look at the proportion of the population that is under 40 – it is vastly more than 10% – so there is a bit of a problem there with youth in politics and one of the reasons that it is something the media look at is because it is quite unusual. What we need to change is the fact that it is unusual – we need to make sure that our politics better represents society in all sorts of ways including the age profile. "Show less«
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  31. Chris1 asked Jo Swinson: "Do you believe that positive discrimination should ever be used to redress the balance of under-represented groups in certain sectors of the workforce, for example women in parliament?"
  32. Jo Swinson answers: "I’ve not been a fan of positive discrimination in terms of women but I’m definitely in favour of positive action – I’m working very hard to get women to come forward and get involved in politics. I don’t..." Show more»" I’ve not been a fan of positive discrimination in terms of women but I’m definitely in favour of positive action – I’m working very hard to get women to come forward and get involved in politics. I don’t know enough about what is stopping young people – is it that not enough young people are coming forward? I suppose an in-built problem with the system is that is fairly unusual to be elected the first time you stand. When I was elected you couldn’t stand until you were 21. I was lucky that I was able to stand 3 months after my birthday – got my first experience of standing and then got elected on my second attempt when I was 25. It was difficult for a lot of people then as by the time the first general election after they were eligible to stand came around, they could already be 23 or 24 which is why, in a sense, you weren’t getting more young MPs. I don’t think positive discrimination would resolve it –lowering the candidacy age to 18 was a step in the right direction and I think that it should actually go further and allow people to vote and stand for parliament at the age of 16. Some people’s argument against that is that you would get lots of teenage MPs, well you might, but if people were to vote for them and choose that person to be their representative then what is the problem? I’m not sure that would happen but what you would certainly get is many more MPs in their 20s who are interested in politics and are able to start their experience of political life earlier and therefore get elected earlier. As long as I’m elected I’m going to be a woman MP helping the gender balance in parliament but I’m not going to be a young MP forever because I’m getting older every day! So it’s a really important thing to keep getting new young people involved in politics. "Show less«
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  36. MarkOne asked Jo Swinson: "What measures do you think should be taken to ensure that the laws banning age discrimination are enforced in the British workplace?"
  37. Jo Swinson answers: "Well first of all I think the laws were very, very welcome but we can’t be complacent and say that because we’ve got a law there then everything is fine. In a sense it is not totally surprising that the..." Show more»" Well first of all I think the laws were very, very welcome but we can’t be complacent and say that because we’ve got a law there then everything is fine. In a sense it is not totally surprising that the problem hasn’t been solved a year on, I think it was 30 years ago that we had equal pay legislation and we are still in a situation where there is not equal pay between men and women. It is clear that this will take a while to achieve because it is about changing attitudes. But the first step is to make sure the legislation is there so there is a clear statement from parliament to say that this is wrong. The EFA say not much has changed but I think it will start to filter into the consciousness of employers and also workers will start to think “well actually I don’t have to retire the minute I hit 65 and maybe I can consider working longer”. As more and more people do that then that will help to change attitudes but changing attitudes does take time and will only partially be achieved through legislation. Legislation is an important factor but we also need more organisations like the EFA to help share best practice amongst different employers. Best practice is then, in a sense, the carrot and use legislation as the stick on those that lag behind and still discriminate on the basis of age. "Show less«
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Rachael Dumigan (show answers)
  1. pollyvickery asked Rachael Dumigan: "Young people are getting a bad rap in the news media at the moment – either they are “hoodies” ignoring their ASBOs or they are lazy, overweight and sit in front of computer games all day shirking physical..." Show more »"Young people are getting a bad rap in the news media at the moment – either they are “hoodies” ignoring their ASBOs or they are lazy, overweight and sit in front of computer games all day shirking physical activity. Do you think the news media ignores positive stories about young people in favour of sensationalised tales of antisocial behaviour and binge drinking or is the future of Britain really that bad? " Show less »
  2. Rachael Dumigan answers: "Definitely. Through the BYC Respect campaign we carried out a survey of 1,000 young people of which 750 were from the UK aged between 12 and 26 and their view on how they saw themselves portrayed by the..." Show more»" Definitely. Through the BYC Respect campaign we carried out a survey of 1,000 young people of which 750 were from the UK aged between 12 and 26 and their view on how they saw themselves portrayed by the media was that they were always negatively stereotyped. The survey also looked at coverage of young people in the news media and it should that out of every 5 news stories, 4 are negative. "Show less«
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  6. sevenof8 asked Rachael Dumigan: "What do you think about the governments proposal to raise the school leaving age to 18? Will it really give school leavers extra qualifications and a better chance in the workplace and if so do you think..." Show more »"What do you think about the governments proposal to raise the school leaving age to 18? Will it really give school leavers extra qualifications and a better chance in the workplace and if so do you think this will have a positive impact on older people's regard for school leavers at work?" Show less »
  7. Rachael Dumigan answers: "No, I think there needs to be more consultation with young people about what they think and how it will affect them and how they will carry it out because for a lot of young people, staying at school ..." Show more»" No, I think there needs to be more consultation with young people about what they think and how it will affect them and how they will carry it out because for a lot of young people, staying at school until they are 18 doesn’t help, they don’t want to be in school and for the job they want to do there isn’t a need to stay in school. I’m not quite sure why they think this is a good idea because if you look at young people going on to university there isn’t jobs for graduates so I think they need to consult young people about it and listen to their opinions and ideas. An alternative would be to run more mentoring schemes in work places so young people can shadow somebody who has been doing the job all their life and learn from them – maybe this way there would be more respect across all age groups in society. "Show less«
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  11. MarkSkinsley asked Rachael Dumigan: "Is it desirable to lower the voting age to 16 given the widespread political apathy among the majority of young people in Britain today?"
  12. Rachael Dumigan answers: "I think this is a good idea because it has worked in a number of European countries were they have lowered the voting age and seen an increase in turn out and this younger age group group actually votes..." Show more»" I think this is a good idea because it has worked in a number of European countries were they have lowered the voting age and seen an increase in turn out and this younger age group group actually votes in proportion to the rest of the population. A fear of allowing young people to vote is that they would have extreme views but in reality they don’t affect the balance, they just increase the balance between parties. Citizenship classes finish at the age of 16 yet you are not allowed to vote until you are 18 which doesn’t really make sense – in effect they are saying “we have taught you all about what is to be a British citizen. Now you have to wait at least 2 years until you can put it into effect.” Allowing 16 year old who are still in school to vote may well increase turnout as they will be encourage to vote by their peers, whereas if you do not allow someone to vote until they are 18, they may well be off doing their own thing and there is no one to encourage to vote. "Show less«
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